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Posts Tagged ‘tkinter

Python v. Tcl/Tk: Denting & Tweeting

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python v. tcl/tkSo.  I have now made two little denter/tweeter programs (to send updates to twitter.com and identi.ca), one with Tcl/Tk, the other with Python. I figured a little comparison, perhaps, was in order.

If you look at them, of course, they look, well, just about the same.  Tkinter is, after all, analogous to Tk.
The Tcl/Tk program made it incredibly simple to display the response from the remote server, which I haven’t succeeded in doing with the python script, yet.  Both rely on calling an external program (curl) to send updates, rather than relying on the languages’ built-in tools.  I could probably work out HTTP POST in tcl rather painlessly.  I did try to use python’s urllib to post, unfruitfully, and resorted back to calling curl.
the links: iDenTickles (tcl/tk) / iDenTweetyPie (python)
the code for both programs is available at the above wiki links

The Tcl/Tk program, which has the added feature of displaying the server response, has only 47 lines of code, 245 words, 1844 characters.  It took me less than an hour to write it.

The Python program, however, which does precisely the same exact thing as the tcl/tk program, without displaying the server response, has 104 lines of code, 564 words, and 4073 characters.  It took me the better part of a day to write it.  Oh, but the python program tells you if your update is too long.
One must ask oneself, of course, is this a testament to the power and simplicity of tcl/tk?  Or, is it simply an indication of my lack of skill with python?
I can’t answer that defnitively, but, to me, it really looks like tcl/tk is a bit more efficient.  Admittedly, I’m not a very skilled programmer at all, in truth.  Timewise, of course, I have been writing tcl/tk for a couple of years, and only just now delving into python. As such, I was able to throw the tcl/tk program together quickly, while, my efforts to “translate” my tcl/tk program into python required a bit of research on the syntax for writing tkinter guis, and other elements.  It just really looks to me as though Python/Tkinter takes a lot more code to do the same thing.  I really have drawn that conclusion.  Especially building a gui, it seems, is more cumbersome with tkinter than with simple, good old tcl/tk.  I know there are other means of building a gui with python (wxwidgets, pygtk, pyqt, etc.), but I wanted to try the one most similar to that with which I am already familiar, and, I believe it is a fairer comparison when using a similar gui ToolKit.
At this juncture, I do have to say, I feel a great loyalty and deep affinity for tcl/tk.  I don’t understand why it isn’t in wider use, frankly.  It is an incredibly powerful language, used for a vast array of purposes, and, in my opinion, is probably the easiest programming language to learn (of course, I haven’t tried them all), especially for a beginning programmer.  One can be up and running, creating useful programs in a relatively short time.  I also feel the need to give kudoz to the tcl/tk community and the tcl.tk wiki, which is replete tons of example code, detailed explanations, and great resources for learning how to program in tcl/tk.  The tcl-ers that hang out at #tcl on irc.freenode.net, additinoally, are extremely helpful, and patient.  They won’t hold your hand, but they’ll tolerate a newbie, and point them in the right direction, without any snobbishness or derision.
I can’t say the same for my experiences with pythonistas.  Their irc channel was a little less friendly, imho.  Maybe I just caught them on a bad day, or maybe I was having a bad day.  After all, Pythonistas are known for having a sense of humor.  Admittedly, I was frustrated when I finally went to their channel for a bit of support, and frustrated, whiny n00b is no fun to play with, any way.  Moreover, the python community does have a lot of documentation available online. Nonetheless, to me, it seems that it is written for other programmers, not for the uninitiated, so, is not so easily read as much of the tcl/tk resources.  Their sample code is not well explained, where someone new to programming can really make sense of it. This may also be a function of time, since tcl/tk has been around a bit longer than python.

I do want to make it very clear: I’m really not here to pick on python.  I know that it’s a powerful language with a great many uses, and a favorite of a great many real hackers who know a lot more about programming than I do.  I will continue to learn to write it, and believe it will serve me quite well for various purposes, and I believe I will continue to have fun learning it.  But, I think I might continue to point out how tcl/tk is much easier and seemingly efficient, too…

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Written by tonybaldwin

March 23, 2010 at 3:30 am

Python v. Tcl/Tk (denting & tweeting)

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python v. tcl/tkSo.  I have now made two little denter/tweeter programs (to send updates to twitter.com and identi.ca), one with Tcl/Tk, the other with Python. I figured a little comparison, perhaps, was in order.

If you look at them, of course, they look, well, just about the same.  Tkinter is, after all, analogous to Tk.
The Tcl/Tk program made it incredibly simple to display the response from the remote server, which I haven’t succeeded in doing with the python script, yet.  Both rely on calling an external program (curl) to send updates, rather than relying on the languages’ built-in tools.  I could probably work out HTTP POST in tcl rather painlessly.  I did try to use python’s urllib to post, unfruitfully, and resorted back to calling curl.
the links: iDenTickles (tcl/tk) / iDenTweetyPie (python)
the code for both programs is available at the above wiki links

The Tcl/Tk program, which has the added feature of displaying the server response, has only 47 lines of code, 245 words, 1844 characters.  It took me less than an hour to write it.

The Python program, however, which does precisely the same exact thing as the tcl/tk program, without displaying the server response, has 104 lines of code, 564 words, and 4073 characters.  It took me the better part of a day to write it. Oh, but the python program does tell you if your post is too long, something I neglect to program into the tcl/tk script. That’s a bonus.
One must ask oneself, of course, is this a testament to the power and simplicity of tcl/tk?  Or, is it simply an indication of my lack of skill with python?
I can’t answer that defnitively, but, to me, it really looks like tcl/tk is a bit more efficient.  Admittedly, I’m not a very skilled programmer at all, in truth.  Timewise, of course, I have been writing tcl/tk for a couple of years, and only just now delving into python. As such, I was able to throw the tcl/tk program together quickly, while, my efforts to “translate” my tcl/tk program into python required a bit of research on the syntax for writing tkinter guis, and other elements.  It just really looks to me as though Python/Tkinter takes a lot more code to do the same thing.  I really have drawn that conclusion.  Especially building a gui, it seems, is more cumbersome with tkinter than with simple, good old tcl/tk.  I know there are other means of building a gui with python (wxwidgets, pygtk, pyqt, etc.), but I wanted to try the one most similar to that with which I am already familiar, and, I believe it is a fairer comparison when using a similar gui ToolKit.
At this juncture, I do have to say, I feel a great loyalty and deep affinity for tcl/tk.  I don’t understand why it isn’t in wider use, frankly.  It is an incredibly powerful language, used for a vast array of purposes, and, in my opinion, is probably the easiest programming language to learn (of course, I haven’t tried them all), especially for a beginning programmer.  One can be up and running, creating useful programs in a relatively short time.  I also feel the need to give kudoz to the tcl/tk community and the tcl.tk wiki, which is replete tons of example code, detailed explanations, and great resources for learning how to program in tcl/tk.  The tcl-ers that hang out at #tcl on irc.freenode.net, additinoally, are extremely helpful, and patient.  They won’t hold your hand, but they’ll tolerate a newbie, and point them in the right direction, without any snobbishness or derision.
I can’t say the same for my experiences with pythonistas.  Their irc channel was a little less friendly, imho.  Maybe I just caught them on a bad day, or maybe I was having a bad day.  After all, Pythonistas are known for having a sense of humor.  Admittedly, I was frustrated when I finally went to their channel for a bit of support, and frustrated, whiny n00b is no fun to play with, any way.  Moreover, the python community does have a lot of documentation available online. Nonetheless, to me, it seems that it is written for other programmers, not for the uninitiated, so, is not so easily read as much of the tcl/tk resources.  Their sample code is not well explained, where someone new to programming can really make sense of it. This may also be a function of time, since tcl/tk has been around a bit longer than python.
I do want to make it very clear: I’m really not here to pick on python.  I know that it’s a powerful language with a great many uses, and a favorite of a great many real hackers who know a lot more about programming than I do.  I will continue to learn to write it, and believe it will serve me quite well for various purposes, and I believe I will continue to have fun learning it.  But, I think I might continue to point out how tcl/tk is much easier and seemingly efficient, too…

Written by tonybaldwin

March 22, 2010 at 8:28 pm

iDenTweetyPie

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iDenTweetyPie

iDenTweetyPie: python/tkinter tweeter/denter

I hacked up a little more python/tkinter silliness.

iDenTweetyPie sends a dent/tweet(update) to twitter or identi.ca.

That’s all, really.

I have no plans to make a full-blown client for either site, just a quick-n-dirty updating tool. I would like, however, to figure out the pubsubhub thingy to send buzzes to google/buzz.

That would take some additionaly work, since, at the moment, iDenTweetyPie tells you that you talk too much and refuses to proceed if your update is longer than 160 characters, which, of course, isn’t necessary for buzz, since buzz tolerates longer updates.

I might work on that.  I don’t know.  This was just a little exercise, really.

I had already written a similar little program in tcl/tk, iDenTickle, which initially only did dents, but I have updated that one to send tweets, too.

my dents :  my tweets

./tony

Written by tonybaldwin

March 22, 2010 at 7:02 am

PyGrill: Throw some FreshMeat on the Grill

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PyGrill:  Throw some FreshMeat on the Grill

PyGrill: Throw some FreshMeat on the Grill

Well…I’ve been translating like mad for weeks and weeks on end, so, after deliverying a project in the weehours last night, and, well, what with spring in the air, I decided to take a bit of time off from translating today, and do that which seemed most appropriate:
engage in a bit of hackery.

Well, you know, spring/creation, being creative…

I’ve decided to try and hack up a graphical user interface (gui) for ESR’s freshmeat-submit.
Mr. Raymond’s freshmeat-submit is a python script for submitting projects to Freshmeat.net, the popular software site (on which I have several projects of my own, in tcl/tk, not python).
All I’m trying to do is make a gui to interact with his script, and in python/tkinter, as a learning experience, so, all the really nifty, hardcore hackery involved in this belongs to Mr. Raymond.

It’s here: PyGrill: Throw some FreshMeat on the Grill.

It’s a pretty n00bish, and rather inefficient bit of code, at this juncture, but I have plans.  This is the very beginnings of a beginning.  I haven’t even got it firing off the submit script, yet, but rather just spitting out the command line arguments to do so, by clicking marinade.  Eventually, “marinade” will save the xml output for future use, while “Grill it!” will actually fire off Mr. Raymond’s script and submit the project to Freshmeat.  But, I’m done working on it for today, because, my kid is home from school, it’s Friday, and it’s too darned nice out to stay in here and hack.  I think we’re going to go for a bike ride.

I wouldn’t even call this a beta release. It’s not even a release, really…it’s just a preview of what will be coming shortly.  I almost feel silly even posting about it at so early a stage, but, posting I am.
I explain my future plans, and display the rather inefficient, and quite incomplete code I’ve so far generated at on the wiki page I’ve created for the project. I’m sure I’ll have something better worked out within the week, and be posting about it again. Incidentally, this is only my second attempt at working with python/tkinter, and still one of my very earliest attempts with python, with or without gui elements.
And, no, I haven’t given up on good old Tcl/TK (with which I could have whipped out the whole, complete program in less time than I’ve spent on this feeble attempt). I’m just broadening my horizons.
After all, I do hope some day to be be a real hacker.

My goals in working on this project are:

  1. to better understand both python and tkinter;
  2. to learn how to generate xml with python, and;
  3. to learn how to play nice with the xml-rpc protocol, in order to;
  4. create a new blog client that will crosspost to wordpress, blogger, liverjournal, insanejournal, and dreamwidth.
  5. waste time hacking when I could be cleaning house, marketing, doing my taxes, etc.

Written by tonybaldwin

March 19, 2010 at 1:10 pm